Music Piracy: Fans’ Perspective
Music piracy: What’s your perspective?
Here’s the scenario: Pete* is a huge All That Remains fan, but he’s growing incredibly frustrated by the lack of availability and ridiculously high prices charged by music stores for his favourite band’s items – to give you an estimate, the local price for an ATR album is roughly between R220-280! Nonetheless, Pete is completely against piracy and refuses to download any album for free, so he decides to visit a reputable online music store and download songs from there. To his horror, the store doesn’t stock one single track from ATR! Pete begins to get irritated and frustrated, deciding not to visit any more online stores. His mindset starts to change, and he finally caves in – visiting a torrent site and downloading the new album, free of charge and illegally.
Now the story of Pete is quite common and I’m sure that many of us can relate to it. Sometimes, you want to support the industry, but there are just so many barriers in the way that make piracy the easier option. And let’s be completely frank here, some of us are probably too lazy to find an online store which stocks everything we want!
As Trent Reznor said in his now infamous blog post, “Music is free whether you want to believe that or not. Every piece of music you can think of is available free right now [and just] a click away”. No longer do you have to order a CD and wait months for it to arrive, instead you can just surf the net for a torrent and get the album in less than an hour – for free.
It’s illegal, but surely convenient as hell. Right?
Music fan, Shelly*, disagrees, “I don’t like to download albums. I still like to have the product in my hands to read the linear notes and admire the artwork.”
Fair enough. I think we all enjoy paging through the album sleeve and admiring the scent of a brand new CD. But what happens, when the compact disc finally becomes obsolete?
“Well, then I’m screwed (laughs). I haven’t really thought that far,” Shelly says.
Junior*, another fan, steps in and says, “CDs will be obsolete and labels will be no more. Artists can finally sell their albums directly through their websites, and I wouldn’t mind paying up to $8 for a high quality download.”
I think Radiohead found out, after the release of In Rainbows, that not all fans will be willing to pay for something that they can get for free elsewhere…
The average fan is actually pretty clued up about how the music industry works nowadays. They know that bands receive literally nothing from album sales, hence why they might think that it’s alright to download albums, as they’re sticking it to the man [record label] and not necessarily the band. And with most torrents now being free from viruses and possessing high bit-rates, quality is no longer an issue.
Some fans will also have a problem forking out their hard-earned money for sub-par albums or simply a song, Junior explains. “90% of albums are garbage anyways. But this is the fault of the greedy execs, radio stations and critics who continue to suckle on the industry’s giant tit!”
Josh*, a college student, admits, “I’m guilty of illegally downloading music frequently. Mainly because I don’t have the money to buy albums all the time and I prefer to use my money to support bands at shows.”
And this is where the problem arises…what will happen when bands begin to self-release their own music without record labels? Will their fans still be set in the habit of downloading illegally and continue to demand music for free or will they start paying?
What are your thoughts on this matter?
*Not their real names
- Sergio Pereira
sergio@musicreview.co.za
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I do agree with ‘Josh’ to some extent. It is true how nowadays most albums only have one or two good songs on them, so it’s hard to be willing to fork out the cash for something not entirely entertaining. Although, when it comes to a band that I’d like to see live I’ll willingly pay for their CD.
It is well-known now that bands don’t actually make much money on CD sales, but the sale-count contributes to whether they will get to tour or not. If a band doesn’t make sufficient sales, their label won’t be willing to put up the money for a tour.
So, for a decent live band, whose music I enjoy, I’d love to pay for their CD. But otherwise, primarily for convenience and the fact that I am lacking in the monetary department, I tend to download.
As for the future, when CDs become obsolete, I really have no idea. I love having the actual CD physically there when I buy one. I’m not a big fan of sites that sell the music.
Interesting point that Hayley touched upon there: “if a band doesn’t make sufficient sales, their label won’t be willing to put up the money for a tour”.
That is so true. If a band’s album doesn’t sell, they might as well forget nice pyrotechnics, huge stage props and overseas tour.
It is true. I see it on bands’ Myspaces all the time. They beg you to buy their new album, but add in a little side note that it’s purely for the numbers. They say, “we don’t make much of the sales these days. It’s the numbers that go towards us being able to do overseas tours though.”
Everything is about fashion and appearance in the media these days. It’s upsetting how an artist will become more popular because of some stupid stunt they pulled at a huge event. And look at the kind of music all these mainstream artists are making these days. From the likes of Britney Spears, to Lilly Allen. It’s all a huge joke.
What happened to musicians getting famous for actually being good at their art?
Brilliant article!
In the South African context, I believe that there are two major causes of piracy in this country.
Firstly, there is an increasingly poor range of music in South African music stores. As such, sometimes it is just impossible to get hold of the music you want… I would imagine that this would drive a lot of people to piracy.
Secondly, I certainly feel that albums are overpriced. The new Arctic Monkeys album costs R160, most NOFX albums cost R280. I mean, come on! So, R1000 will get you 4 cds? That’s just ridiculous! When I was in London earlier this year, the story was quite different. I bought 11 cds, 4 shirts and 3 books in a music store for about 90 pounds. Is there a reason why South African stores tend to be so overpriced?
In this sense, the drive to piracy in South Africa comes down to basic economics. A lack of supply and exorbitant prices would naturally encourage people to seek alternatives, and in doing so, would drive people towards piracy.
The problem is that albums are often imported, and import duties just create an extra middleman that push up prices even more.
Most record labels in South Africa print only mainstream or locally-based acts – and therefore import other items.
Hence, why NOFX will probably cost you R280 (import) and Green Day will be R150 (local press).
Just check the back of the CD under the copyright notices and it should say where it was printed and pressed.
Yeah, it is a great pity that so much music has to be imported.
I reckon that R280 for a 20 minute NOFX CD would certainly lead people to download it, or copy it instead…
Hello Gentlemen:
I have mulled over these arguments over countless times and have lived on both sides of the street–ie: I have bought CDs and have gone through the headaches of producing CDs.
At the end of the day, regardless of all other issues, piracy for any reason, is simply theft. Just because one can get away with this theft doesn’t make it the proper thing to do. After all, you wouldn’t steal a TV from Walmart just because you don’t like the price or inconvenience?? You walk out of the store.
Folks, copyright violations are very expensive. In the U.S. deliberate copyright violation penalties are $30,000 per incident. This means an illegal download of a single CD could cost you $250,000 in fines. It’s just not worth it.
Now, everyone today thinks that nobody will attack them for their illegal downloads—It’s never happened, right?? Everybody is getting away with it, right???
I say, “What if you are a major label, about to go bankrupt, and you have documentation of tens of thousands of illegal downloaders?” If I were running this label I would hire the attornies and bring my record company out of the red on the backs of these thieves. They are well within their rights to do so, and computers offer them a perfect way to document every single illegal download in every single country worldwide. What a setup!! I mean the record labels could own 25% of all homes in the world if they decided to push this button!
So, piracy is not only illegal, it is a terribly risky thing to do.
Thanks for your time, gentlemen, and great article–very relevant!!
Jared Brandt
Brandt Morain Studios, LLC
i have read through all these arguments and yes there is something to all that has been said.
however i tend to agree with Mr.Trent Reznor
a friend was telling me in Australia u can go to a public library, and take out any cd you want if they don’t have it u can tell them and they will get it for u. (including new releases)
That sorts things out a bit i mean everybody should have the right to listen to music right? – why only let it be a separatist luxury
i am a big fan of online streaming audio.
i sit in front of a pc so much it just makes sense.
and one day we will all have internet connections on our phones and other portable devices, with unlimited download and great speed.
Bands, labels and promoters will always find a way to make their cash whether it be in letting people advertise on their web sites or mainly live performances, merchandising will always be good for people who like to have actual hard copy with artworks and such.action figures and t- shirts too.
we just have to think about things differently
G-boy
G-boy
You will have to show me where this “right to listen to music” is documented. I just checked the U.S. constitution, the Bible, Magna Carta, and other such relevant documents and can find no such right.
I tell ya what, G-boy. I think I will come to your place of business, steal your products or services, and then tell you that this theft is OK because you will always find another way to make cash. You just have to think things differently, and all will be fine.
Seriously, my friend. You are rationalizing theft. If somebody did to your livelyhood what you are doing to the Recording Industry, you would call the Police.
-j
Ok, so here’s my 2cents.
Jared you are totally correct. Downloading music is illegal. Point in case. Done deal. And it’s theft! (Please don’t extrapolate the theft thing, we understand that. It’s like those silly “You wouldn’t download a car” adverts).
However, my point is this. The whole CD distribution model is outdated. People need to adapt. Straight to online selling is best. CDs should become a commodity, not a necessity. It’s like vinyls nowadays. Some artists make special vinyl releases and it’s a treasured item.
Music should be released cheap, if not free, and the profit should go towards merch and “special items” and live performances. To make any sort of living of music in this day and age is tough. People will download your music. FACT. There’s no denying it. However, let me tell you this. If people released their music for cheaper and or free, I would definitely listen to them more. Then when they are really awesome, I consider buying their CD’s as a token of my dedication to the band (and bragging rights and specialness). Also, it opens up their music to broader base, so they can attract more people. This said, more people would blindly download tunes and/or buy them if they were cheaper. It’s sort of like a blind date, but with music.
So, in a way, you can see piracy as a marketing/distribution model. Without piracy, this whole industry would collapse. Music, itself, shouldn’t be a commodity. That’s the point what I’m getting at. It is sad in a way, but the industry needs to adapt accordingly. Also, I’m a big supporter of the pay whatever you want model that Radiohead did with In Rainbows.
Hi Jared,
Thanks for the feedback. G-Boy said “everybody should have the right to listen to music”, which I think is correct if you are going to be parting with money for an album or wish to make an informed decision (you don’t just buy a car without test-driving it first and it should be the same case with music).
Unfortunately, there have been many cases in South African CD stores where they don’t allow you to listen to an album before you purchase it. Whether it be because the listening booths are broken or general store-clerk laziness, it isn’t right and takes away the power from the consumer to make an informed choice.
MySpace and Youtube streaming is also extremely difficult to do in our country, as we don’t all have broadband or stable enough connections to listen to something online. Until the digital divide gets bridged, it will be exceptionally hard for the majority of South African fans to be on technological par with the rest of the world.
Whichever way you want to look at, downloading an album is illegal – it’s the law and that’s that.
But we can’t ignore the many contributing factors that have made piracy such an escalating problem. And the record industry is not blameless or a hapless victim at all….
I particularly enjoy this debate and would love to see many more comments on it
Also I’d like to add, that music started as a live performance, before all the recording equipment and nonsense. That’s what it’s starting to move back to. Music/CD’s should be the product of a performance, not the performance of a product.
hello everyone.
i’m with *shelly on this one.
i like having a hard copy of an album. yes, i still call them albums. i like having the album art and the liner notes.
i realize that bands don’t get much money from the sales of an album, especially if they’ve signed an 360 deal, but i do think sales help them.
i love seeing live music and i know that sales helps concert promoters decide who to put out on tour. sales at sites such as itunes help as well.
when i attend these shows i always buy merch and if they’ve got a tip box/jar out i always tip, especially the really small bands, they just barely make gas and food money and it helps them get to the next show.
on the point of everything going digital, i wonder how those small bands will fare on the road without those merch table sales. i have bought countless CD’s from the merch table of some small band, sometimes i’m plesantly surprised, sometimes not.
personally i hope music never goes completely digital.
on a side note, i’ve seen a lot of bands releasing albums on vinyl lately.. i love that, for me it’s a sign from above that the artists don’t want muisc going all digital as well.
i think the moral of this story is..
support your favorite bands or you might never get to see them live.
enjoy your day
(oh.. sergio.. sneaky.. very sneaky..)
Jared instead of over reacting like a Fascist tool! Look at what i wrote carefully
I was simply saying that we should!!!! all have the right to listen to music!! not that it is in any constitution…
and further with regard to streaming audio.
i was talking about Legitimate online streaming audio sites such as deezer and others. where they actually give u the opportunity to listen to music for free but also let for you to buy the music from their site. Legitimately! this is legal. same as itunes.
(so u can listen to whatever u like without the need to own it.
and then if u like ithe music so much that u would like to own it then u can Purchase it).
I was in no way saying that theft is ok.
I was simply saying what NielDLR said afterwards, that the structure we have now must change!
G-Boy
This is a problem not just limited to music, with the growth of ebooks it is fast becoming a major issue there too. And of course it has long been a problem with videos and movies, too. Piracy is piracy. Theft is theft. You can try to rationalize it, but it just diminishes us all. For the Internet to be a viable and healthy medium for spreading creative things, piracy has to be stopped.
NielDLR:
I’ll address your argument point by point:
1: The CD distribution model is not outdated. Older folks buy CD’s, younger folks buy (steal??) MP3′s. If the model were outdated then Walmart, the largest distributor of music worldwide, would not carry thousands of CD’s.
2: Music is cheap. The only folks who argue that it’s expensive are the folks who have never had to cough up $250,000 for a proper Pro-Tools Recording Console. The average high-end studio has sunk millions into equipment. Then they have to pay musicians/engineers/producers/promotions. The minimum Scale pay for studio musicians, according to the Musician’s Union, is $100/hour. The average Producer gets $100,000 per album. Engineers usually cost around $50/hour or more. This is all free market driven. The average cost per song at Itunes is about One Dollar.
3: If you routinely give your product away, nobody will buy it. They will just wait until you give it away the next time. I think Adam Smith and John Nash were quite clear on this point.
4: With piracy, the whole Industry IS COLLAPSING!! Take a look at record sales in the last five years. Piracy is destroying the industry. If you endorse this destruction then maybe the next phase will be targeted at your livelihood, hmmmm???
5: The Industry does not need to adapt. Thieves need to adapt.
Think about this while you have your next $4.00 cup of Starbucks.
-j
@Roger: Wow, didn’t even think of other mediums. However, excuse me while I get a little bit philosophical and meta here. Monetizing creativity will always be a problem. Once, you release something into the public domain, it’s not yours anymore (in the creative sense). People start interpreting it their ways, way differently than you intended etc. Therefore, in my opinion, trying to make money of creativity will always be an uphill battle, due to the subjective substantiation of privacy. People just don’t “GET” how much effort people put into creative endeavours.
Thus, trying to stop piracy, is like driving to fight fire with fire. It’s only aggravating people more, driving to finds ways to download more efficiently and better. It’s like iTunes’s DRM music. It’s silly.
Therefore, instead of focusing energy combating piracy, rather try find ways to use it to your advantage.
The era we live is called the knowledge economy. Stealing a TV is totally different from stealing music. Let me explain:
A TV is something physical, it is made of resources. If you steal it, you steal something tangible. A new TV can’t be created without incurring cost.
Music on the hand is digital. If you “steal” it, you only take away potential income. The music can be replicated without incurring ANY cost. Copy -> Paste.
Given the digital nature, all of it is essentially infinite. So: the music industry is trying to monetise something that is infinite… I know my economics 101. Why does something have value? Scarcity. It’s a broken model.
With the old model, if something was “stolen”, someone actually “lost”. With the knowledge economy if someone “steals” a song, the artists/record label doesn’t actually physically lose anything.
I must agree with Nieldlr: “Music/CD’s should be the product of a performance, not the performance of a product.”
People who pirate music wouldn’t have bought it anyways (heck, how can students afford music?), BUT they WILL pay to go see a gig… Would they have gone to the gig if they couldn’t pirate it?
G-Boy, let’s see…
I am advocating paying for what you own and quoting Adam Smith and John Nash…..Nope, I just looked it up. I cannot find a single reference calling Adam Smith or John Nash fascists. Also, I am quite sure that individual ownership of property is contrary to fascism.
-j
This was brought to my attention and I bet it was to find out my take in this matter.
“Piracy is piracy. Theft is theft. You can try to rationalize it, but it just diminishes us all”
Yes Roger… Well put.
Now this has been a problem for decades. Bootleg copies….coping for and from friends etc. To think it is going to stop anytime soon is a lost cause. Our society has taught people to think they have the right to free things, even if it is not free.
The problem has many more contributing factors as well. High cost….lack of quaility….and accessability and ease of the internet.
There are many artists that have free downloads, free streaming and publicly state that it is fine if you want to burn copies for friends.
Others only offer clips of songs to sample and still others offer nothing. BUT it is their choice and their business. (yes a band is a business!) For the Indies this not offering a way to hear can hamper their ability to grow their fanbase.
Now to look at the silver lining of things….if the music was NOT good…you would not have people taking the time to try to get it for nothing. Also it has been proven that many times the downloaders of these illegal files DO actually go and purchase the music at a later date…usually on CD.
@Jared:
1+4. Ok, yes let me rephrase. CD’s are still relevant. Of course it is. That’s biggest way of distributing music. However, it’s outdated or quickly becoming a relic, because it fails to compensate for the rise of broadband, meaning here fast delivery of content to the end-user via the Internet. This ties in with point 4. That’s the REASON the music industry is failing. It thinks it’s being snubbed by thiefs, but it doesn’t adapt quick enough. That’s why online distribution models, ala iTunes are becoming so popular, and CD sales are bumming.
2. Music is cheap yes, CDs are not. I record my own music, with a dinky little mixer, home recording software and sequencer with cheap mics. I managed with my extreme tight budget to record some tunes. It might not be AMAZING, but it works. Now, if you go up just a little bit and buy some nice Home Recording Hardware and decent mixer with decent mics you’ll also be able to produce good music. You’re just trying to substantiate something that need not be that expensive. With my home software sequencer I can make a Britney Spear track in a day. I didn’t rent a studio. Home recording is becoming so cheap, that these expensive studio setups you’re talking about, need not be an issue. Yes, yes, you’ll probably say, you’ll never be able to produce the same quality etc etc etc. And to some extent, I agree, it might not be the same, but spending that much money on recording software/hardware becomes a futile exercise in diminished returns.
3. Yes, of course people will expect that, but you’re not grasping my point here. You shouldn’t be selling music, but rather the product of the music (CD/MERCH/VINYLS). Therefore, the reason people pirate is because CD’s are so darn expensive, especially when they import them. A CD is a just medium for the music. I’m part of a great 8bit music/chiptune scene of people all across the globe who make music on vintage consoles (Nintendo, Game Boy, Commodore 64, Atari etc) and the general consensus is to release your music for free. The reason being, first the “love of music”, secondly because there’s no way people would buy this obscure music before listening to it first.
Yes, they don’t make a living out of their music, because again, they do it because they really dig the aesthetics, but it drives a marketing like none other. I would never have known of 8bit music, if people didn’t release it for free. Because of that I got into the music, started making it myself, and I’m now going for a gig in Melbourne with other 8bit artists. They’re paying for part of my airfare. See, that’s what I’m getting. Releasing your music for free or cheap (ala iTunes or similiar services), creates an awareness like none other and there’s the profit.
5. Oh, but the industry is the minority. You can’t stop the world from “stealing”, but you can change the industry. It’s simple numbers.
Simon:
Have you ever heard of Intellecutual Property?? Ideas have real value. If they didn’t then why do we have a patent office?? Corporations spend milliions protecting ideas that you deem have no value.
Just because you can’t see or touch something doesn’t mean it is valueless.
When you steal an artists music he does lose something–his career.
It seems you were asleep in Econ 101. The only reason scarce demand currently exists for purchased music is because everyone is stealing it. An economy based on theft is not sustainable.
BTW. Music cannot be replicated for free. You will have to explain to me how to do a cut and paste without first buying a computer.
-j
@Jared:
“Just because you can’t see or touch something doesn’t mean it is valueless.”
It is, if it is essentially infinite.
“When you steal an artists music he does lose something–his career.”
It is because the model is breaking. You won’t be able to patch and fix piracy. EVER. Try rather to get other revenue models. What are artists really good at? Getting loads of people to watch them? What do you have then? Lots of eyes in one place. Advertising. That is just an example.
“It seems you were asleep in Econ 101. The only reason scarce demand currently exists for purchased music is because everyone is stealing it. An economy based on theft is not sustainable.”
I’m not going to talk semantics about stealing again.
I would just like to add, from a more philsophical point of view, which is why I think people find it more acceptable in their minds to pirate:
Music is a rather intriguing “format”. There is nothing like it. It is a consumable product, while remaining essentially digital (and infinitely copy-able). When my neighbour decides to play his music really loud I am in fact “consuming” the music without owning it. Someone drives through the road, with their speakers blaring. 50 people hear the music. They don’t own it, but they consumed it just the same.
The music industry is bloated, because they managed to bottleneck the distribution of it (making shitloads of money). I am for it going back to its roots.
“Music/CD’s should be the product of a performance, not the performance of a product.”
NielDLR: Again, I’ll adress your arguments point by point.
1: The fact is that music sales OVERALL are in dramatic decline. If there were simply a transfer to MP3′s from CD’s going on, then overall Industry Revenues would have continued to increase in the last five years due to inflation, if nothing else. Proof: In the past, the Recording industry continued to grow as a switch was made from 8-track players to cassettes. The true problem is that this new digital medium allows for massive, easy, and cheap theft for the first time in history. This is what’s killing the industry.
2: This argument is about Top of the line Pro recordings. Home made records never sell and never have sold. State of the Art recordings have always been brutally expensive and will continue to be so. Please stay on topic.
3: Why can’t I sell music?? Why must I only be allowed to sell Merch?? People have been making and selling music for years? What has changed?? Answer: Massive Music Piracy on an order never anticipated.
4: Once again, music is cheap. You really must look into the costs of producing Pro quality music.
5: Why can’t you stop the world from stealing?? Theft where I live is incredibly low. There is virtually no theft in Idaho. The theft rates per capita are outrageously low. So, clearly, theft CAN be stopped. All you need to do is enforce the law.
-jared
Edo Segal published this interesting bit in TechCrunch the other week about where the money remains to be made in the music industry:
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/31/for-the-future-of-the-media-industry-look-in-the-app-store/
For anybody still thinking the traditional profit model is salvageable, and that piracy can be stopped by simply “enforcing the law,” I encourage you to read that article.
Record companies have been trying to stop the file-sharing flow, but nobody can stop the torrenting. The practice of file-sharing is so decentralized that it would mean launching a full-scale war against a generation of people whose only crime is intelligent use of information technology. Nobody is worried about the record companies. On the contrary, their ineptitude is laughable. http://www.boingboing.net/2007/09/20/mediadefender-sends.html
Shouldn’t the record companies take reasonable steps to protect their market viability–like providing value to emerging markets?
Jared-
This my response to #2. That’s completely untrue. Home made recordings have been drastically increasing in the music industry. In fact a good portion of the metal/hardcore scene involves recording in a small home studio then transferring it to professional for minor tweaking. Even big names are starting to rely on just small home recordings. Look at Oasis, they recorded their ENTIRE new album using just a $300 (US) dollar digital mixer and Garage Band. That’s dirt cheap! Then they just transferred it off to the label where an engineer played with the audio quality and mixing for a total of 12 hours. That’s 600 bucks, to record and produce and album that was mainly tweaked by the artists themselves. High quality music only matters in one area of music, and that’s pop. Even in the rap world mix tapes and low quality demos sell FINE, look at artists like Immortal Technique… He would rather people download his albums, he’s gone on record saying that multiple times. More people listen to him that way, which means more people come to his shows. There are dozens of other artists that would rather see their albums downloaded. I was JUST at a Nine Inch Nails concert a few months ago, and Trent Reznor said to the crowd that everyone needed to get his latest album and he doesn’t “give a shit if that means you have to download it illegally.” I put that in quotes because that’s word for word what he said to a stadium crowd.
Let’s face it, the music industry is changing, and what most people don’t realize is that this isn’t about ‘stealing’ the music itself, it’s about infringement of copyrights. Those copyrights haven’t been updated for a digital age, in fact the last time they were updated in the US was approximately 25 years ago. Let’s face it copyright infringment in the UK and America needs to be lowered to 5 years, and non-commercial media sharing SHOULD be legalized. It’s part of the way the world works. Just as vendors who used to sell ice door to door back in the 30′s couldn’t stop refrigerators from becoming legal, content owners should not be able to use the law to protect an outdated and obsolete business model, instead why don’t they start looking at ways to profit off non-commercial file sharing instead of fighting it… They could create search engines which would allow for advertising revenue that would more than make up for any losses. It’s just like the war on drugs here in America, instead of embracing the winds of change industries would rather spend hundreds of millions of dollars fighting a losing battle.
“Pirating” has gone from being some petty argument about who’s stealing what from who, to something that should make EVERYONE question copyright laws, and think about what exactly qualifies for infringement in this day and age. It’s all about legal and intellectual copyrights that are just too old to stand the test of time. Let’s face it, places like the US or the UK, where the media mongrels are pointing their fingers, make up for 38% of the worlds total illegal downloads. As long as places like Russia, China, Spain, and believe it or not, Canada exist and don’t rectify their copyright laws then pirating will never ever stop.
I haven’t even gone into why piracy is so successful! People have to find torrents off sites, right? Well how do you think those sites make revenue? Advertising… Advertisers back up piracy by giving money to help torrent sites like btjunkie.com, or thepiratebay.com. Obviously that’s okay! The music industry should look at those kinds of formulas and think to themselves “Hey, why don’t we try to make up for lost income by hosting one of these sites!”. With a name and reputation from a major music label behind a website, the advertising revenue they could make would be multiplied tenfold when compared to a normal torrent website.
The industry needs to stop fighting a losing battle, and start using their F*cking heads. It’s all uphill for them, and when it’s over, it ain’t gonna be pretty.
-Palmer
PS I totally agree with Josh in the article, he sounds like a badass.
1. Yes, the digital medium might be a cause for the downfall, but I’m stressing again, this is not only the piraters’ fault, but also the music industry. You can’t stop technological advance. It’s a fact of life. Yes, the industry might be suffering, I agree, but this is where you adapt or die. This traditionalist thinking will you get you nowhere. Again, piracy was always there, and always will be here. That’s what I’m getting at. Therefore the industry, is still clinging to traditionalist models. It’s hurting them.
2. Refer to what despitefulminate said.
3. With the digital format you are paying just for music, in a very pure form. But the industry is primarily based on CD’s, which is what you are actually paying for. That’s the thing. People haven’t been selling music, they been selling the medium, 8 track, tapes, records, LP, CD’s etc. Yes, semantically they are selling music, but it’s not the music that makes the product expensive. It’s the CD, the production, the marketing, the artists, the recording etc etc. If I record with my home recording studio, upload it to a site, then it shouldn’t be expensive.
4. Refer to 2.
5. DUDE! C’mon get real. How the hell would you enforce piracy laws? There’s now way you’d ever be able to do it. Look at DRM what iTunes did. People were disgusted that you could only copy it 3 times etc etc, but people managed to circumvent the system. Also the example you are using is not within the scope of the internet. Again, refer to what Simon said, you can “steal” music much easier and it’s not even “stealing” that’s the thing. You copy the product. The original artists has no way of knowing that the product was copied. I’m going use the TV analogy as well. Let’s say I go into your house, steal your TV, but I don’t “steal” it, I merely make a copy, and take it home with me. You never noticed that your TV was “stolen”. That’s the thing with piracy. You can’t track it. You can’t stop it. It’s impossible. Therefore, trying to stop piracy, is like trying to stop a flood.
Despitefulminate:
You guys keep changing the argument. Are we all to believe that the average Pro-quality CD costs only $600.00 to create?? Give me a break. My drumset alone cost me over $10,000. Please, let us not delve into the minutiae of bizarre statistical outliers. Let us concentrate on the realities and average problems facing the Recording Industry today.
I recently had a conversation with a very highly sought after gold and platinum winning producer/engineer. He informed me that record sales have become so poor, because of piracy, that no Recording Label expects to make any money from CD sales. He informed me that today, the Recording industry’s only serious source of income is from profits from Live Concert Performances. SO, OF COURSE, TRENT REZNOR DOESN’T CARE IF YOU STEAL HIS CD!!
Copyrights today are as relevant to modern recordings as they were to Edison Wax Records. The medium in NOT relevant. Where are you getting your facts?? Are you aware that the U.S. copyright office is experiencing it’s largest backlog in history?? Right now, it takes a full year to get copyright registrations processed. If Copyrights were not geared to the digital age, or were outmoded and part of an obsolete model, as you put it, then this backlog would not exist.
There is nothing outmoded or outdated about the Recording Industry, except for it’s inability to deal with rampant worldwide theft.
Nobody, except thieves, are questioning copyright laws. Can you point me to a single bill introduced in Washington that advocates abolishing Copyright Laws and was seriously considered???
I am glad you point out that Russia, China & Spain have pirating problems that they cannot control, or perhaps don’t want to. Notice the coorelation?? These countries you refer too have some of the worst economies on the planet. As I said before, and economy that is based upon theft is not sustainable.
Piracy is only successful for those who are stealing or profiting tangentially from this theft. Piracy has nearly destroyed the Recording Industries. You have a bizzare definition of “Success”.
Despitefulminate, I’m sorry to say, but you entire argument is based on assumptions that simply are not true. So, you conclusions have little weight.
-jared
NielDLR:
Lordy, you people are killing me. NeilDLR, There is no industry in the world that can withstand the kind of massive rampant theft that the Recording Industry has suffered. It has already folded, in part, and will fold in the future if this continues.
This is not an issue of technology. This is an issue of ethics. When 8-tracks gave way to cassettes, the Recording Industry did not suffer. Why?? Because the means for massive, easy, worldwide theft did not exist.
Again, NielDLR, you have no respect for Intellectual Property. What more is there to say??
You enforce piracy laws just like any other–You enforce the law. Forget DRM. How is law and order enforced in you neighborhood?? BTW, each copyright violation is punishable by a $30,000 fine(USD). This means one illegal album download could cost you your house. Plus computers offer a perfect medium to record every single illegal download, worldwide. You had better hope that the Record Labels don’t have access to this database.
-j
Ok, let me put this to you again. I hope I can somehow get my message across, ’cause if there’s one thing I hate, it’s circular arguments that get to no point.
Yes, I agree, the music industry did take a beating. A mean vicious one, but who’s fault is this? The inevitable technology advances that people took advantage of, or the music industry that didn’t see it coming. People always tend to point the finger outward and not at themselves. Consider that.
Your argument about 8 track to casettes are irrelevant, because casettes are not digital. You make it sound like as if digital technology caved the world. Again, get of that tradionalist thought pattern. Go ahead sell CDs and see if you can continue making money. YOU CAN’T. That’s what I’m getting at. This piracy thing was inevitable and music industry didn’t adapt to take account for it.
So, please Jared, tell me how would you enforce piracy laws. ‘Cause I for one see no way in doing that. It’s impossible. Don’t tell me, just “enforce the law”. That’s stupid. Next thing you’re going to tell me, is to shut down the internet and throw away computers.
Also, China: one of the worst economies in the world? Fallacy alert! China are on their way to become the next world superpower.
On the topic of intellectual property. Yes I respect IP’s, but music is not like that. Maybe, because I never saw music as a way of making money. Music is a release. It’s a passion. A way to communicate where words fail. I make music at least two hours every day. The day when music and business mixed, the whole thing got corrupt. I don’t care what people do to my music: as long as they listen to it. That’s why I support the Creative Commons Licence, which is probably the greatest solution thus far to this whole shebang. As long they don’t make money of my tunes, share it to the world: give it to your sister, your aunt, your friends. Music was there since the stone age, and will be here forever. Music was never and will never be about the money for me. It’s this inherent ideal that influences my argument. People shouldn’t pay for music. They pay for the performer and the product/medium of distributing the music. Like I said: Music should be the product of a performance, not the performance of a product.
NielDLR:
You enforce the laws by hiring attorneys to go after the most egregious illegal downloaders, one by one. It’s very simple.
You wake up one morning, get handed a warrant charging you with
multiple counts of copyright infringement. They confiscate your
computer immediately. You then go to court and you lose because your
computer proves to them that you are guilty—and they
take everything you own.
NielDLRL: It’s already starting to happen. Do a google search on folks that have been popped for illegal downloading. It is a very
simple process.
Now, This is where it gets
interesting. Record Labels have not bothered to go after thieves in large numbers because they have better things to do–try to make money selling CD’s and profits from concerts,etc… BUT, if they are pushed to the wall–ie: facing bankruptcy, they will finally do the unthinkable. They will go after all the illegal downloads when they have nothing to lose and/or their business has been decimated. Don’t forget, they have the proof.
China’s economy is grossly over-exaggerated. Their GDP is smaller than California’s last time I checked, and their average citizenry lives in squalor conditions.
Music IS Intellectual Property, just like software, which you also probably also pirate. Music is a business. Some people like making music, and some don’t—just like any other business.
Anyone who says music is all fun and passion has never paid the dues required to produce a truly Pro CD.
Recorded music did not exist in the stoneage. Recorded music is a twentieth century invention. Again,you change the subject. Piracy is not about stealing the music of someone who is banging bongo’s in their living room.
People should pay for good music. Truly good music is terribly expensive and difficult to create. Same with software, same with movies, same with books, same with patents.
Sir: You simply refuse to acknowledge or respect the immensely clever mountain of work that people put forth to give you these incredible creations for a mere few dollars??
-j
Before we continue, let’s just wrap up this “off-topic” subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
“China has had the fastest-growing major economy for the past 30 years with an average annual GDP growth rate above 10%.”
Cool that’s done. Yes, I’ve read the case of this ridiculous fine this one girl got. It’s just a scare tactic dude. Do you really think we have the man power to control piracy? Like Desiree says it’s decentralized. It’s just impossible. One by one? I can’t believe you are actually serious.
Let me just put things in perspective here:
Apple is now the largest music retailer in the US
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/04/03itunes.html
And 35% of all music sales in the US are digital.
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_090818.html
Does that not paint you a picture of the current music industry? THERE IS NO MORE GOING BACK! Just realize that. Digital will become the dominant distribution of music. You can’t circumvent it.
Music became a business. I don’t care about the “business”. It corrupts the music. But sorry I might be going “off-topic”, ’cause apparently it’s not relevant.
“People should pay for good music. Truly good music is terribly expensive and difficult to create. Same with software, same with movies, same with books, same with patents.”
Oh no. You’re terrible subjective here. Good music? Are you going to tell me, that’s pop music? Truly good music is NOT expensive to create and difficult to create. That’s the biggest lie ever. You seem to be in denial. The Internet has changed the distribution model. Also, like I said, I don’t have lack of respect for the hard work people put into a “Pro CD” which, again that’s why I argued that there is no need for a “Pro CD” anymore. Cheap recording cancels that out. However, let’s continue. I support artists by going to their gigs and buying their CDs straight from them at gigs. I also buy shirts/badges etc. I know how much passion and energy goes into music, and I like to support artists, but I know for a fact that buying their CDs in the shops won’t help them at all.
sergio..
you picked a great topic this time..
all i know is that i have NO downloaded songs on my computer.. legal or illegal.
i will continue to purchase the CD.
i will continue to purchase merchandise at shows.
that is all
@tattedgrl I know
It’s one of those topics that divide people immensely, and I’m reading every single comment here.
It’s interesting because we’ve had the musician and fan’s perspective. Let see if we can convince a label rep to comment too?
Yes, I wish to thank Sergio for starting this discussion.
In this day and age, there could not be a more relevant
topic for discussion at music review boards. There are
careers, companies, and entire industries hanging in the
balance.
I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to present my thoughts
on this important topic.
Thanks Sergio!!
Jared Brandt
Brandt Morain Studios, LLC
http://www.BrandtMorain.com
twitter.com/brandtmorain
NielDLR:
It is a simple matter to go after illegal downloaders one by one.
All is required is the will to do so.
If you don’t believe me then you need to consider the creation and
reach of the following:
IRS
BATF
CIA
FBI
Department of Social Services
Commerce Department
Department of Motor Vehicles
Police Forces
Heck, they even regulate little tabs on pillows and the amount of gallons you can flush in you water closet.
Be careful, all you pirates!! Just because they haven’t done something about it yet, doesn’t mean they won’t. After all, there
was a time when none of these organizations existed.
-jared
NielDLR:
I am not in denial about how much it costs to produce music.
I have been playing as a full-time professional musician in the pro circles for decades with famous heavy hitter musicians.
I am a degreed audio engineer.
I have designed and built two recording studios.
I just released my debut CD, “Brandt Morain Volume One”, where I was the musician, engineer and producer. I also mastered this CD.
I know precisely how much it cost to produce music.
-j
There are many views, which you have mostly covered.
What about the view currently in the media, those who download free music legally, as samples or in exchange for voting etc & wind up paying more for music.
I am one of these people. I rarely download songs to my computer & only with permission & currently pay up to $6.95 a song to phone & purchase regularly. I still love CD’s, but spend more time on the go & this service is completely compatible with my handset, so i’m happy to pay this.
I must say that a lot of purchases have been due to releases from artists, you get a pre release taste of something you love & wait for the release to still buy the cd, I also do this.
Artists work hard to create these pieces for our enjoyment, often at the risk of exclusion from friends & family, due to travel & rehearsal commitments.
I believe the least we can do is to support their efforts & help make it financially viable for them to continue creating music for our passionate consumption.
I also believe it is to the artists benefit to release at least one or two songs to a subscriber base. If the music is shared with others, logically, there is a greater chance more people will purchase the full album.
The notion of paying for music nowadays is ridiculous. There is no such thing as piracy when it comes to music anymore. Bands are privileged that we listen to them as much as we’re privileged to be able to listen to them. If I really enjoy their music I will feel compelled to visit their website and make a donation or buy merchandise. I will go to their gigs and concerts and tell all my friends how cool they are. The album or mp3’s are disposable and essentially an advertisement for the product – the band. I can literally find thousands of bands to listen to. In fact, there’s more music out there than there is time to listen to it. In the information age, the idea of being forced to pay for content is obsolete, and in fact, arrogant.
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